Jazz or CargoJet?

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andrewhartjr
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Jazz or CargoJet?

#1 Post by andrewhartjr » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:32 pm

Hey

I would like some of you guys opinion on a dilemma I'm having.

I have started 3 month ago at Jazz on the CRJ, no problems so far. A few month ago I applied to Cargojet and never heard from them until 2 weeks ago I received an email inviting me for an interview for the 757/767.

So far I feel like going to CargoJet is the smart thing to do for me, here are my reasons:

Pros of going to CargoJet:

- Pay: a bit more than twice what I am making now
- Schedule: Only 14 days of work per month
- Equipment: always been a fan of Boeing
- Some people mentioned to me that it would labeled me as an ''Off the Street'' Candidate with AC Mainline and get me there quick, but I don't care as Mainline is not my career objective.
- Opens a lot of doors abroad if one day I want to move out the country.

Cons of going to CargoJet:

- Have to move to Hamilton, leave my current apartment, etc...
- Schedule: Lots of night flying
- Not sure about the upgrade possibilities?

Pros of staying at Jazz:

- I am getting comfortable
- Putting my name on the next PML
- Upgrade in 1.5 years?
- Based home

Cons of staying at Jazz:

- Very low salary
- If mainline PFOs me, then what do I do? I don't want to fly regional my whole life. I feel like I'd rather get my seniority number now somewhere I feel I can stay for life.

Would appreciate any input.
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co-joe
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#2 Post by co-joe » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:52 pm

You're on the right track with the decision making. One way to help is to weight each pro and con with a numeric value say out of 5, then the decision boils down to math.
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montado
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#3 Post by montado » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:06 pm

I think you are nailing all the main points. Jazz will probably become a revolving door soon. Its not quite a living wage sub 40k on an RJ in YVR. Also what will the Jazz future look like? They are reducing their pilot workforce and fleet size. Quite possible Jazz may only operate the Q400 in the future. If you want to fly a Jet for your career Jazz is a roll of the Dice. CargoJet appears to be a monopoly, even with a downturn I do not see them laying off crew in the foreseeable future. The night shift might be tough at CJ. I Don't see Jazz as a career company anymore. The way the whole contract went down just before Georgian and Sky started up pretty much solidified that Jazz is not meant to be a career place anymore. The latest contract is a clear indicator of the direction they are going.
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nightbird
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#4 Post by nightbird » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:18 pm

CargoJet lost the cargo agreement they had with Air Canada recently, not sure what the immediate implications of that would be, maybe someone else here can give more information but is something to consider.

https://theloadstar.co.uk/pilots-put-br ... rtnership/
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montado
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#5 Post by montado » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:45 pm

nightbird wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:18 pm
CargoJet lost the cargo agreement they had with Air Canada recently, not sure what the immediate implications of that would be, maybe someone else here can give more information but is something to consider.

https://theloadstar.co.uk/pilots-put-br ... rtnership/

Annnnddddd its back. Just as quick as it disappeared they are back doing that exact flying again. I think the terms of the agreement changed slightly but they are flying the same freight for AC, and I still think even flying around with the AC call-sign.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#6 Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:51 pm

In your post you state that mainline is not your objective but also state that a pro of Jazz is putting your name on the next PML. If you have no interest in mainline then probably Cargojet might be a better option. However if you do want to go to mainline then you're more likely to get there from Jazz. How long is the current wait for an interview for Jazz pilots? A couple years of potential lost seniority at another airline is probably worth it for a better chance at mainline if that's where you want to go. I don't think Jazz is a career airline anymore. I don't know much about Cargojet however historically you'd probably be more secure long term at national flag carrier than a charter cargo airline.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#7 Post by Monorail Conductor » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:26 pm

Deconstructing the cargojet con you listed: night flying

How do you feel about pulling all nighters 14 times a month? If youre young and have a robust immune system, great. But the detrimental effects of night shift over time will have compounding effects on your physical and mental health as you get older. Maybe to put it in terms relative to Jazz, it would be like a block full of CDs, month after month, which to me is less than ideal. But if its only temporary and a stepping stone and you dont foresee yourself doing night flights into your 50s or 60s, then youll be well positioned for other jet jobs...
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#8 Post by Anticyclone » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:36 am

Hey bro,

Money is not everything trust me after a couple of years of night flights you will look much older than your Jazz batchmates and even 150K wont cut it.

I know Jazz isnt gonna get you to do some savings so if i were you i would wait for the PML results and worst case scenario you will get the left seat at Jazz which will put you in the 75K ish and then you take it from there. :wink:
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#9 Post by Boreas » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:39 pm

Curious, whats average yearly income for a 1st year 767 F/O at Cargojet these days?
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#10 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:26 pm

I think around $75k
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#11 Post by bigbob » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:20 am

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andrewhartjr
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#12 Post by andrewhartjr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:11 am

Hello guys, sorry I was busy and I couldn't check the forum until now.

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the advices. I think I am going to stay at Jazz until I go through the process of being assessed by mainline. This way no regrets and I am sure Cargojet will always be around in 2 years if I decide to join them.

Thanks!!
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#13 Post by andrewhartjr » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:16 am

Just for your info, starting pay at CargoJet is 66.000$.

Thanks
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#14 Post by timeflies » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:35 pm

A B757/767 type rating is a precious type rating that will open so many doors overseas ... and 6 figures salary. If your long term plan is to stay in Canada, Jazz is a good transition to mainline but then again, it's not guarenteed. Don't forger Mainline is hiring Off the street also. We are in a good time for us pilots to make strategic moves about our future, make it right.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#15 Post by HansDietrich » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 pm

I understand what you mean. Your goal is not necessarily AC, but you would prefer a WB aircraft at a decent company. Neither Jazz or CargoJet are long term careers; Jazz for the low pay and CJ for the horrible schedule (night cargo flying). If I were you, knowing you want to fly big jets, I'd go to Cargojet for a year or two, get your 1000 hrs - 1500 hrs on a heavy jet then start applying to the jobs you really want. Staying at Jazz may seem comfortable now, but who knows what the future brings. I personally left Jazz not too long ago. The pay (at my new job) is way better and I'm home a lot more often. The only draw back is that the "job stability" is not as good as for an airline; Jazz is not "that airline". I'm willing to bet that their contract will only get worse with time, as pilots will see it as just a stepping stone to other bigger and better things. Few will stay, because they genuinely like lifestyle, but it's not what it used to be.

Good luck anyway and remember to make the choice that best fits your goals and lifestyle.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#16 Post by ant_321 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:14 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:31 pm
I understand what you mean. Your goal is not necessarily AC, but you would prefer a WB aircraft at a decent company. Neither Jazz or CargoJet are long term careers; Jazz for the low pay and CJ for the horrible schedule (night cargo flying). If I were you, knowing you want to fly big jets, I'd go to Cargojet for a year or two, get your 1000 hrs - 1500 hrs on a heavy jet then start applying to the jobs you really want. Staying at Jazz may seem comfortable now, but who knows what the future brings. I personally left Jazz not too long ago. The pay (at my new job) is way better and I'm home a lot more often. The only draw back is that the "job stability" is not as good as for an airline; Jazz is not "that airline". I'm willing to bet that their contract will only get worse with time, as pilots will see it as just a stepping stone to other bigger and better things. Few will stay, because they genuinely like lifestyle, but it's not what it used to be.

Good luck anyway and remember to make the choice that best fits your goals and lifestyle.
Where did you end up Hans?
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#17 Post by Blueshift » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 pm

Hello,

I'm hoping to get some more information on the Cargojet B767 FO ad. Feel free to pm, if needed.

- What is a typical schedule for a junior F/O?
- How is the overall morale at the company?
- Is there much movement?
- What is the expected upgrade times?
- How insulated is the company from a market slowdown?
- Are they hiring sub-2000hr pilots with non-jet 705 time?

Thanks for your time!
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#18 Post by jorgeherrera.ca » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:44 pm

Blueshift wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:54 pm
Hello,

I'm hoping to get some more information on the Cargojet B767 FO ad. Feel free to pm, if needed.

- What is a typical schedule for a junior F/O?
- How is the overall morale at the company?
- Is there much movement?
- What is the expected upgrade times?
- How insulated is the company from a market slowdown?
- Are they hiring sub-2000hr pilots with non-jet 705 time?

Thanks for your time!
I know a pilot from CJ and as per him morale is good, upgrade time is avg 2 years to left seat, and they are hiring with 1500tt 704 experience.
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LCflyguy
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#19 Post by LCflyguy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 am

The cargo jet lifestyle will literally kill you mate, and impact your relationships outside of work.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#20 Post by Blueshift » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:55 pm

jorgeherrera.ca wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:44 pm
I know a pilot from CJ and as per him morale is good, upgrade time is avg 2 years to left seat, and they are hiring with 1500tt 704 experience.
Thanks for the info - it's very much appreciated. I'm surprised to hear the competitive requirements are at that level! Are those hired with 1500tt/704 only still upgrading in that timeframe?
LCflyguy wrote: The cargo jet lifestyle will literally kill you mate, and impact your relationships outside of work.
Is this current info, or is this from a few years ago? I heard the schedule significantly improved after unionization. Thanks!
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#21 Post by jorgeherrera.ca » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:05 pm

Blueshift wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:55 pm
jorgeherrera.ca wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:44 pm
I know a pilot from CJ and as per him morale is good, upgrade time is avg 2 years to left seat, and they are hiring with 1500tt 704 experience.
Thanks for the info - it's very much appreciated. I'm surprised to hear the competitive requirements are at that level! Are those hired with 1500tt/704 only still upgrading in that timeframe?


That’s a good point. I didn’t ask that but if you ask me I’d expect 704 guys to take longer than 2 years to upgrade unless you have thousands of hours and tons of command time from your 704 days.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#22 Post by sicamore » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:20 pm

jorgeherrera.ca wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:05 pm
Blueshift wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:55 pm
jorgeherrera.ca wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:44 pm
I know a pilot from CJ and as per him morale is good, upgrade time is avg 2 years to left seat, and they are hiring with 1500tt 704 experience.
Thanks for the info - it's very much appreciated. I'm surprised to hear the competitive requirements are at that level! Are those hired with 1500tt/704 only still upgrading in that timeframe?
=

That’s a good point. I didn’t ask that but if you ask me I’d expect 704 guys to take longer than 2 years to upgrade unless you have thousands of hours and tons of command time from your 704 days.
http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/cgi-bin/re ... &p25=&p34=

Upgrade requirements will not have changed from the above last CBA.

Once you have met this upgrade will be in order of seniority, skill and performance. Usually ascertained from results from last Sims and how you would fair in a leadership role.

Needless to say I don't think you would be looking at left seat on a widebody with less than 5000 hours. At 1500 starting and 400 hours a year you will realistically be looking at 8-10 years
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#23 Post by fish4life » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:46 pm

I think the lifestyle killing you is referring to any cargo operator since you are predominantly flying all night which destroys the body over the long term.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#24 Post by tps8903 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:46 am

Monorail Conductor wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:26 pm
Deconstructing the cargojet con you listed: night flying

How do you feel about pulling all nighters 14 times a month? If youre young and have a robust immune system, great. But the detrimental effects of night shift over time will have compounding effects on your physical and mental health as you get older. Maybe to put it in terms relative to Jazz, it would be like a block full of CDs, month after month, which to me is less than ideal. But if its only temporary and a stepping stone and you dont foresee yourself doing night flights into your 50s or 60s, then youll be well positioned for other jet jobs...
+1.

Don't care who you are the night shifts eventually do everyone in. It's just not sustainable on your body long term. It messes everything up.

Can one do it? Yeah, but it will take its toll.

I did night for 15 years. The first 5 in my early 20's were easy, then it got harder and harder. I've never felt better now that I don't do them anymore.
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Re: Jazz or CargoJet?

#25 Post by bearitus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:45 am

I am in a similar situation and was considering making the switch to cargojet. I can't afford to stay at jazz given the FO pay unless I upgrade fast. Does anyone know if working 2-3 years at cargo jet as an FO would open up doors overseas or is a 767 type rating not that marketable internationally?
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