Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

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digits_
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Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#1 Post by digits_ » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Looks like companies are running out of instructors, given the amount of instructor ads on the forum this past week.

Have we reached a next step of the shortage: no instructors willing to work for low wages, and/or no pilots willing to pay 10k for such jobs, as they can get in a bigger plane more quickly anyway?

Not surprised it happens, just a bit surprised it happened so soon...

What will be the next step: running out of 200 hour pilots?

*interesting times intensifying*
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#2 Post by flyingjerry » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:47 pm

It seems that mainly companies can't hold onto class 1-3 instructors.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#3 Post by MarkyMark90 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:13 pm

The waiting list for an instructor rating around Montreal is 6 months, due to lack of class 1’s
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#4 Post by youhavecontrol » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:51 pm

YES... where I work, we are working on strategies to keep the more experienced instructors (2's and experienced 3's) around at least a bit longer, but it's tough when so many just want to get the hours and leave, no matter what the incentive is to stay. Can't blame them, but I wish there was a better way of having instructors stay longer. It's tiring to keep running orientation and supervision programs for new instructors that just leave after 6 months.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#5 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:33 am

I hear that if you pay people enough, they tend to stay longer
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#6 Post by Yycjetdriver » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:24 am

I still remember my first time flying into YLW. Had a good chuckle when I saw a flight instructor from a certain Southern Interior BC based flight school, mowing the school lawn in his full white shirt/black pant uniform, while a second was in the same uniform on his hands an knees pulling weeds. The first officer I was with (a former instructor at that school) told me he had a month while working there where he taught GS/ground briefed (no pay for that) for the month and had WX cancellations on his flying, at the end of the month he actually got a bill instead of a pay check.
..... I have no sympathy for these type of places and frankly hope this sortage eventually forces them to shut their doors. But hey why treat people well when you have a carrot in the form of flying shitty metros around for 21,500$.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#7 Post by Air Ops » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:51 am

I have my issues in trying to find qualified staff as well but perhaps the FTU world could benefit from a method that we utilise to good effect.

As well as up-and-coming young stars we also target a more senior demographic. People who have been in the flying world for many years and who may now be retired or perhaps just looking for a different lifestyle where they don't have to live out of a suitcase. The ideal candidate for these jobs are people who were instructors in their youth and who went on to bigger and better things in their careers but we can make use of those who have never instructed. Their reasons for taking an instructing job vary; perhaps they are now looking to give back to the flying community while keeping busy and earning enough money to pay for their health insurance when they go South for the winter.

The secret to finding and keeping these people is to make the transition easy for them and to not make working for you into an onerous task. These people are not kids and they don't like to be treated that way.

If you recognise their experience and their skills, you can offer them an instructor rating at a reduced rate or in exchange for future service. They generally have few difficulties in completing the training and they can bring you a wealth of knowledge and credibility that your junior instructors cannot. Managing such pilots is not without it's difficulties but assure you that they are not going to leave you for a regional airline that leads to Air Canada. Many will have come from Air Canada and they just want to instruct at the local airport on a nice sunny afternoon.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#8 Post by youhavecontrol » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:26 am

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:33 am
I hear that if you pay people enough, they tend to stay longer
To an extent, yes, but many are leaving just because they don't want to instruct for a career. A lot of people get tired of it and I understand why. I takes a lot of patience to constantly watch someone else fly your aircraft, making mistakes, while you resist the urge to take control because they need to learn. Instructors don't really fly the plane all that often... at least the good ones.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#9 Post by flyinhigh » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 am

youhavecontrol wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:26 am


To an extent, yes, but many are leaving just because they don't want to instruct for a career. A lot of people get tired of it and I understand why. I takes a lot of patience to constantly watch someone else fly your aircraft, making mistakes, while you resist the urge to take control because they need to learn. Instructors don't really fly the plane all that often... at least the good ones.
True, but paying someone $6-900 every two weeks won't keep even people that like instructing around.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#10 Post by RocksAndProps » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:30 am

Where I used to work, more than half the instructors turned over in the past year, mostly those who could teach Multi and IFR. Several Class 1 instructors either retired or left. Students are now on a very long waiting list to get MIFR instructors. No real solution in sight, there's nobody around to teach those who want to teach.

It's really unfortunate, the pool of 200-hour wonders is going to dry up very quickly. None of them can get qualified.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#11 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:39 am

How much do you pay multi and IFR instructors?
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#12 Post by HansDietrich » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 am

youhavecontrol wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:51 pm
YES... where I work, we are working on strategies to keep the more experienced instructors (2's and experienced 3's) around at least a bit longer, but it's tough when so many just want to get the hours and leave, no matter what the incentive is to stay. Can't blame them, but I wish there was a better way of having instructors stay longer. It's tiring to keep running orientation and supervision programs for new instructors that just leave after 6 months.
I have an idea how to "fix that", at least to some extent, but it would take the cooperation of the industry as a whole.

For example, I would love to be an instructor, but like everyone else knows, the financial compensation is just not there. What flight schools / regional airlines could do is this:

1. Work out an agreement, where they would provide a free instructor rating to experienced airline pilots
2. Allow these airline pilots to work part time as instructors, while still maintaining their airline job / benefits. Of course, it would something like 20 hrs per month and the pay would be shared by the school / airline. So a CRJ F/O can get 60 credits a month from say Jazz and 20 credits from working at... pick a recognized school.

A lot of pilots would do that if they can reduce 4 days of being on the road.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#13 Post by RocksAndProps » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:53 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:39 am
How much do you pay multi and IFR instructors?
They were paid $38/hr or $42/hr, depending on experience.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#14 Post by North Shore » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:40 am

^Per flying hour, or per hour on the property?
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#15 Post by Chris M » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:46 am

For someone like me (150 hr night rated PPL), what would be the investment required to obtain a CPL and instructor rating?

I would love to get into instructing. I have very fond memories of my time teaching gliding to Cadets (and am looking to start into that again soon). The problem for me would be that any instructional job would be part time. I already have a good (non-flying) job that I have no intention of giving up. Because of this I suspect that the time required to see any kind of return on my investment is simply not practical.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#16 Post by RocksAndProps » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 am

North Shore wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:40 am
^Per flying hour, or per hour on the property?
Per flying hour. Usually, they would do about 60 hours per 2wks.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#17 Post by 7507 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 am
youhavecontrol wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:51 pm
YES... where I work, we are working on strategies to keep the more experienced instructors (2's and experienced 3's) around at least a bit longer, but it's tough when so many just want to get the hours and leave, no matter what the incentive is to stay. Can't blame them, but I wish there was a better way of having instructors stay longer. It's tiring to keep running orientation and supervision programs for new instructors that just leave after 6 months.
I have an idea how to "fix that", at least to some extent, but it would take the cooperation of the industry as a whole.

For example, I would love to be an instructor, but like everyone else knows, the financial compensation is just not there. What flight schools / regional airlines could do is this:

1. Work out an agreement, where they would provide a free instructor rating to experienced airline pilots
2. Allow these airline pilots to work part time as instructors, while still maintaining their airline job / benefits. Of course, it would something like 20 hrs per month and the pay would be shared by the school / airline. So a CRJ F/O can get 60 credits a month from say Jazz and 20 credits from working at... pick a recognized school.

A lot of pilots would do that if they can reduce 4 days of being on the road.

One of the best ideas I've read so far, makes sense and you'll have an instructor with that operational experience.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#18 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:20 pm

RocksAndProps wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:47 am
North Shore wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:40 am
^Per flying hour, or per hour on the property?
Per flying hour. Usually, they would do about 60 hours per 2wks.
No wonder people are quitting, that's 1500hrs of flying a year! I'd be burnt out and useless as a pilot, never mind trying to teach too.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#19 Post by youhavecontrol » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Speaking personally, I've had a pretty comfortable 4 years as an instructor.. enough to live a modest life at least, while paying for a home and supporting my family. Where I work, we are taken care of pretty good, but there's always pressure to do more work. I've been pretty good at saying "no" to working too much and getting burned out. Even if they offered me more pay though, I'm almost ready to move on to something new.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#20 Post by jg24 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:31 am

7507 wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:19 pm
HansDietrich wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 am
youhavecontrol wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:51 pm
YES... where I work, we are working on strategies to keep the more experienced instructors (2's and experienced 3's) around at least a bit longer, but it's tough when so many just want to get the hours and leave, no matter what the incentive is to stay. Can't blame them, but I wish there was a better way of having instructors stay longer. It's tiring to keep running orientation and supervision programs for new instructors that just leave after 6 months.
I have an idea how to "fix that", at least to some extent, but it would take the cooperation of the industry as a whole.

For example, I would love to be an instructor, but like everyone else knows, the financial compensation is just not there. What flight schools / regional airlines could do is this:

1. Work out an agreement, where they would provide a free instructor rating to experienced airline pilots
2. Allow these airline pilots to work part time as instructors, while still maintaining their airline job / benefits. Of course, it would something like 20 hrs per month and the pay would be shared by the school / airline. So a CRJ F/O can get 60 credits a month from say Jazz and 20 credits from working at... pick a recognized school.

A lot of pilots would do that if they can reduce 4 days of being on the road.

One of the best ideas I've read so far, makes sense and you'll have an instructor with that operational experience.

Maybe an experienced airline pilot could be a great instructor. But if they work part time, or less than part time, will that really benefit the students in any way over a full time non-airline instructor? If said airline pilot comes off an airline pairing and works 1 day as an instructor, he will fly with student X once maybe. What benefit will that be for the student? Unless the FTU has a well regimented procedure for following PTRs and lesson plans so that instructors don't waste students' time and $, then I don't really see the benefit. They could be helpful for instrument instruction, or multi work too. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#21 Post by Victory » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:44 am

Modern flight instruction isn't about teaching students how to fly it's about teaching them how to pass their flight test. Who's better to do that than someone who recently passed theirs?
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#22 Post by HansDietrich » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:28 am

jg24 wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:31 am
Maybe an experienced airline pilot could be a great instructor. But if they work part time, or less than part time, will that really benefit the students in any way over a full time non-airline instructor? If said airline pilot comes off an airline pairing and works 1 day as an instructor, he will fly with student X once maybe. What benefit will that be for the student? Unless the FTU has a well regimented procedure for following PTRs and lesson plans so that instructors don't waste students' time and $, then I don't really see the benefit. They could be helpful for instrument instruction, or multi work too. Just my 2 cents.

Valid questions and concerns, so I will try to answer it:

1. Remember that a lot of airline pilots are in the training departments at their respective airlines or were instructors at one point in their careers. I can assure you that the value a student gets, EVEN FROM A PART TIME AIRLINE PILOT is a lot more than a brand new Class 4 instructor with 200 hrs

2. I understand having 1 instructor paired up with one student. That way training can be "continuous" and the instructor knows its subjects. Things don't work that way in the airline world. You get whoever is available that day. To have that succeed, you need strong SOPs, a strong training syllabus and uniformity. That way, it should not make a difference who is doing what lesson. The material is the same, the instruction is the same, the points covered are the same.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#23 Post by digits_ » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:57 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:28 am

1. Remember that a lot of airline pilots are in the training departments at their respective airlines or were instructors at one point in their careers. I can assure you that the value a student gets, EVEN FROM A PART TIME AIRLINE PILOT is a lot more than a brand new Class 4 instructor with 200 hrs

2. I understand having 1 instructor paired up with one student. That way training can be "continuous" and the instructor knows its subjects. Things don't work that way in the airline world. You get whoever is available that day. To have that succeed, you need strong SOPs, a strong training syllabus and uniformity. That way, it should not make a difference who is doing what lesson. The material is the same, the instruction is the same, the points covered are the same.
In theory, yes, in practice it doesn't really work that way. I went through the system you described above at a flying school that employed a lot of part time airline instructors, and a few full time instructors (who flew bigger planes years ago) for my CPL, multi, ifr ratings. The most value, I got from the full time instructors. I flew with them more, they knew my progress and knew which mistakes were important to fix for me, and which weren't because they were just "flukes of the day".

The part time instructors sometimes also had the attitude that they would fix all the mistakes from the other guys, since they were still flying commercially and knew best. This is not good for learning. The school did have SOPs in place. But SOPs can only go soo far, especially in a learning environment. People deviate, especially instructors because there is no one around to check up on them. Getting a lecture from instructor B how you are not following school SOPs for doing things exactly like instructor A told you, is quite detrimental. Especially when A and B deny or change their story when you confront them. Not nice.

Another point I'd like to make, is that the goal of a flying school is to teach you how to fly for example IFR. The SOPs of the school are their for the instructors, they shouldn't be too important for the student, as long as they reach the flight test standards. It shouldn't matter if the ATIS is listend out on com 2 or switched with ground or clearance delivery on com 1. It shouldn't matter exactly in what format you prepared your flight planning, as long as you have all the information you need. If you flew with instructor C for 60 hours for ppl and initial cpl training, then instructor D shouldn't try to change every little SOP mistake you made in the last 5 hours before your CPL.

Every company will have different SOPs anyway, so spending too much time on getting the student do everything according to the school's SOPs, can feel a bit like milking as well.
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#24 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:53 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:28 am
You get whoever is available that day. To have that succeed, you need strong SOPs, a strong training syllabus and uniformity. That way, it should not make a difference who is doing what lesson. The material is the same, the instruction is the same, the points covered are the same.
In that case, why does it matter if the instructor has 20,000 hours at an airline, 2000 hours, or 200 hours? If the material is the same, the instruction is the same, the points covered are the same, what does it matter who teaches it?
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Re: Did we reach the next phase of the pilot shortage?

#25 Post by photofly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:03 pm

...
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