Swoop Blacklist

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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#76 Post by atphat » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:42 pm

Donald wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:05 pm
So when Swoop becomes successful, and I get laid off from my current job, will ALPA/ACPA automatically hire me or otherwise pay my mortgage if I refuse to join Team Pink?
I have to admit I kind of agree. I never really understood pilots blaming pilots taking jobs. What's funny is that there are probably some Sky and Encore pilots on here screaming...YES! BAN THEM! SHAME!!!! How soon we forget.

This is a WJ problem. I do see where WJALPA is coming from. They need to try something. Blaming pilots who need to pay the bills is not the answer. This is up to the WJ pilot group to solve and it's up to them if they want to do what it takes. If they don't? They must live with it forever. Stop blaming other people.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#77 Post by x-wind » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:29 pm

This is why we need a college.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#78 Post by flyinhigh » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:47 am

x-wind wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:29 pm
This is why we need a college.
No, this is why we need unity. Pilots will take jobs to get ahead for personal gain period. I.e. I go to swoop I can get that jet time to finally go over seas. How dare they blacklist me.

How about, I currently have a job that is paying pretty descent so I'll stick it out until I can get something that has the proper WAWCON for classification of aircraft.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#79 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:36 pm

I'd consider applying at Swoop since A) don't need the money and B) don't like unions trying to tell people where they can and can't work. Let the market decide. I have a feeling there are plenty pf guys who don't give a rat's ass about 1970's union tactics like "blacklists". Wake up, it's a global market. No one cares.

If wages are too low to attract enough applicants they'll have to raise them or fold. If they get enough applicants it suggests the wages at mainline are too high. Just market logic, not emotion.

Say, is realitychex that guy who was stealing files out of people's garbage in the 90's? Or the one who used his AC login to harvest load data. I forget how all that all went.

Ah who cares.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#80 Post by atphat » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:42 am

complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:36 pm
Say, is realitychex that guy who was stealing files out of people's garbage in the 90's? Or the one who used his AC login to harvest load data. I forget how all that all went.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#81 Post by Bede » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:38 am

complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:36 pm
If wages are too low to attract enough applicants they'll have to raise them or fold. If they get enough applicants it suggests the wages at mainline are too high. Just market logic, not emotion.
If that's the way it works, I'd agree, but unfortunately the way it works is that once they run out of pilots, they just lower the experience requirements. See WJE 500 hr minimum and Sunwing "cadet" program.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#82 Post by x-wind » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:44 am

Globalized market, pilot unity? You guys are nuts or bots.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#83 Post by Gino Under » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 pm

All this talk of creating a blacklist and enlisting the support of fellow unionized pilot's is nothing more than blind ignorance. It is the dangerous ideology of some very outdated, prehistoric, and unprofessional union thinking that has no place in our industry today. Eastern Provincial tried it. Didn't work.

Every pilot in this country knows, or should know, what it's like to find a job piloting an aircraft in Canada with its "pay your dues" mentality yet, some of those sounding off in this thread would have us believe their blacklist agenda has some kind of noble purpose. It's nothing more than an attempt at bullying. Some among you might even be considered the very industry leaders most Canadian pilots would prefer to look up to for advice and professional guidance. A helping hand. By encouraging and standing behind such crap is simply ignorant and beyond words. Pushing a blacklist agenda is not responsible professional leadership. It certainly isn't going to go far in solving any CBA issues. It most certainly won't provide ALPA with a shiny image.

This approach to specific CBA issues serves NO useful purpose to anyone other than that single pilot group. You want support for your grievance? A blacklist won't give you the result you seek. Blacklists only serve to destroy careers, foster animosity among pilots, make pilot shortages worse, and do absolutely nothing to inspire or encourage those who dream of a piloting career in Canada. What then are we, as an industry to do when the very few airlines we have in this country are handed a legitimate reason to hire foreigners? What kind of mileage do you think you'll get out of your blacklist? How much responsibility will you bear for changing the landscape by trying to decide who gets to harvest what little will remain?

Be careful what you wish for. Responsibility can be a very heavy burden.

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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#84 Post by Mr. North » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:34 pm

Disagree 100%
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#85 Post by Boreas » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:34 pm

There are guys paying to fly Airbuses in Europe and in Asia.
I've even heard of pay-to-command schemes out there.

For those of you advocating a free for all capitalist
environment, would you standby or even support this sort
of practice? After all, its market driven.

If yes, why? For the sake of respecting some economic principle?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#86 Post by George Taylor » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:44 pm

Gino Under wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 pm
All this talk of creating a blacklist and enlisting the support of fellow unionized pilot's is nothing more than blind ignorance. It is the dangerous ideology of some very outdated, prehistoric, and unprofessional union thinking that has no place in our industry today. Eastern Provincial tried it. Didn't work.

Every pilot in this country knows, or should know, what it's like to find a job piloting an aircraft in Canada with its "pay your dues" mentality yet, some of those sounding off in this thread would have us believe their blacklist agenda has some kind of noble purpose. It's nothing more than an attempt at bullying. Some among you might even be considered the very industry leaders most Canadian pilots would prefer to look up to for advice and professional guidance. A helping hand. By encouraging and standing behind such crap is simply ignorant and beyond words. Pushing a blacklist agenda is not responsible professional leadership. It certainly isn't going to go far in solving any CBA issues. It most certainly won't provide ALPA with a shiny image.

This approach to specific CBA issues serves NO useful purpose to anyone other than that single pilot group. You want support for your grievance? A blacklist won't give you the result you seek. Blacklists only serve to destroy careers, foster animosity among pilots, make pilot shortages worse, and do absolutely nothing to inspire or encourage those who dream of a piloting career in Canada. What then are we, as an industry to do when the very few airlines we have in this country are handed a legitimate reason to hire foreigners? What kind of mileage do you think you'll get out of your blacklist? How much responsibility will you bear for changing the landscape by trying to decide who gets to harvest what little will remain?

Be careful what you wish for. Responsibility can be a very heavy burden.

Gino Under :partyman:
Gino, you are exactly why we have a shit industry in Canada. There’s no way to talk you down from your pulpit. Maybe you could give up your employment to help an aspiring pilot. You know lend a helping hand.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#87 Post by Gino Under » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:36 am

George, truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Those of you who think Westjet pilots can dictate the terms of employment beyond their own CBA are delusional and out of touch with reality.
Trying to blackball or blacklist simply shows your inability to find a palatable solution to this issue, yet. You need to come up with a modern, more effective approach to your Swoop crewing issues.
Swoop won’t succeed anyway.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#88 Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:13 am

Here's a practical question: how is the average pilot supposed to know Swoop is "blacklisted"? Contrary to popular belief, most pilots do not read avcanada. Will they tell you during the interview?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#89 Post by yyc757 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:59 am

For the people that say pilots should be able to take these left seat Swoop jobs off the street. Seriously, using your logic why not apply to AC direct entry left seat on the 319, 67, heck you deserve left seat 787.

What do you care about the 1000's of pilots already there?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#90 Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:27 am

yyc757 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:59 am
Seriously, using your logic why not apply to AC direct entry left seat on the 319, 67, heck you deserve left seat 787.
I'm sure that if people could, people would. Wouldn't you?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#91 Post by Fanblade » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am

Gino,

Your correct in a way. Black lists don’t really hold much water. They are more symbolic than anything.

What they do is put up a very important warning flag for the pilot community.

Do you think an expat applicant from China is aware that what WJ is offering at Swoop might vanish? Do you think Swoop management is telling them? Would you want to be making a decision without knowing the job you are applying for is being contested?

The blacklist provides a warning. Buyer beware. You might accept a left seat at $XXX and find yourself in the right seat at half that. Worse the job may not materialize at all.

Trust me if that happens to someone, WJ management won’t care. You will just be insignificant collateral damage in their drive to cut costs. Actually they will just shrug their shoulders and deflect the blame at the WJ pilots.

If I were considering Swoop, I would want to understand exactly what I was getting myself into. Management won’t do it.

The correct term is recruitment ban. Do you have a better idea?
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Last edited by Fanblade on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#92 Post by dumbbell daddy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:18 am

I personally know 6 highly qualified pilots that have applied to Swoop. 1 from overseas and the rest from Canada. All applied and want the job for different reasons.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#93 Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:22 am

Fanblade wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am

The blacklist provides a warning. Buyer beware. You might accept a left seat at $XXX and find yourself in the right seat at half that. Worse the job may not materialize at all.
A warning is only effective if people know about it. How will pilots that apply at swoop and are not on avcanada know about the blacklist?
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#94 Post by Fanblade » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:37 am

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:22 am
Fanblade wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am

The blacklist provides a warning. Buyer beware. You might accept a left seat at $XXX and find yourself in the right seat at half that. Worse the job may not materialize at all.
A warning is only effective if people know about it. How will pilots that apply at swoop and are not on avcanada know about the blacklist?
If you don’t research the company you are applying to, you deserve what you get. Who would do that anyway?

A simple google search of “Swoop Westjet news” is all that is needed. Recruitment ban pops right up.

A little bit of digging takes you straight to the actual ALPA recruitment ban document.

There is no excuse.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#95 Post by FL410AV8R » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:00 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:22 am
Fanblade wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am

The blacklist provides a warning. Buyer beware. You might accept a left seat at $XXX and find yourself in the right seat at half that. Worse the job may not materialize at all.
A warning is only effective if people know about it. How will pilots that apply at swoop and are not on avcanada know about the blacklist?
It behooves any pilot applying for a job in Canada or elsewhere to research that position and company prior to interviewing or accepting employment. Any internet search using the parameters WestJet, Swoop and pilot will return numerous hits of newspaper articles and press releases mentioning the recruitment ban. One would have to be living in a cave not to be aware of unrest and the recruitment ban. There is no way to plead ignorance on this.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#96 Post by Boreas » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:17 pm

.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#97 Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm

It's a start up company. The only information on schedule and pay is available on the offical swoop website itself.

Why would someone who sees the ad search for westjet's point of view on a -at first glance- different company? People who are unaware of the westjet/swoop discussions will not necessarily make the link with westjet. Or research it that thorougly. I would. You probably would. A lot of people don't.

Also note that google takes your search history/tracking ads etc into account to display relevant articles. So you might see swoop blacklist posts when you search google, other people might not. I for one see no pages about a blacklist when I look for Swoop working conditions or swoop salary.

Even if I search "swoop blacklist" or "is swoop blacklisted", only avcanada posts pop up. No official websites.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#98 Post by FL410AV8R » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:42 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm
It's a start up company. The only information on schedule and pay is available on the offical swoop website itself.

Why would someone who sees the ad search for westjet's point of view on a -at first glance- different company? People who are unaware of the westjet/swoop discussions will not necessarily make the link with westjet. Or research it that thorougly. I would. You probably would. A lot of people don't.

Also note that google takes your search history/tracking ads etc into account to display relevant articles. So you might see swoop blacklist posts when you search google, other people might not. I for one see no pages about a blacklist when I look for Swoop working conditions or swoop salary.

Even if I search "swoop blacklist" or "is swoop blacklisted", only avcanada posts pop up. No official websites.
If someone chooses not to research a future job neither I nor anyone else can save them from themselves.

There is NO excuse for willful ignorance. The screenshot below is from a 2 second Google search.
Screen Shot 2018-02-14 at 12.36.41 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-02-14 at 12.36.41 PM.png (718 KiB) Viewed 1136 times
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#99 Post by Fanblade » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm
It's a start up company. The only information on schedule and pay is available on the offical swoop website itself.

Why would someone who sees the ad search for westjet's point of view on a -at first glance- different company? People who are unaware of the westjet/swoop discussions will not necessarily make the link with westjet. Or research it that thorougly. I would. You probably would. A lot of people don't.

Also note that google takes your search history/tracking ads etc into account to display relevant articles. So you might see swoop blacklist posts when you search google, other people might not. I for one see no pages about a blacklist when I look for Swoop working conditions or swoop salary.

Even if I search "swoop blacklist" or "is swoop blacklisted", only avcanada posts pop up. No official websites.
Digits,

I am currently not in Canada. Using a browser and search engine I never use I typed in “swoop news”. The recruitment ban was not at the top, but it was on page 1. It took one click on a link to see the connection between WJ and swoop.

It’s not a black list. It’s a recruitment ban.

Your assertion that someone would apply, show up at an interview and accept a job without seeing the connection between Westjet and Swoop is not plausible.

It reads as excuse making.
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Re: Swoop Blacklist

#100 Post by aerodude » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:11 pm

Instead of blacklisting swoop, if we had better entry level salaries for new hires at WJ and AC maybe people would be so less inclined to apply at swoop for the jet experience? Why do regional F/O’s in the USA pay better than major airlines here in Canada? Instead of blacklisting why isn’t our union fighting for better entry level.

This is the whole objective at Swoop, make it look like ALPA will have to give concessions to get rid of swoop aka rouge.
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